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29 comments:

Yeah. It is an interesting topic. No surprise that I'm opposed to legal marrige. Couldn't all the benefits of legal marriage easily be codified through private agreements?

Nonetheless, I beleive that the politicians today (such as Obama) which oppose gay marriage but support civil unions will one day be look upon like those who supported separate but equal or other politically convieneint yet morally repugnant positions.

Oppose legal marriage, support legal marriage, but do it consistently at least.
by: Mike (contact) - 23 Dec '08 - 15:14
Yeah, the GLBT community can't really walk away from the marriage battle as long as the 1,400+ legal/social/economic benefuts for marrieds are repealed. Some of those can't be replicated through private ontract, like adoption rights and survivor's benefits. Pretty much anything related to kids can't be totally the product a contract.
by: Meg (contact) - 25 Dec '08 - 11:26
I guess rather than walk away from it, I wish they'd let us join in.

Imagine if they abandoned trying to get "married" and instead called it "lovelock" in protest.

All us straight socially liberal folk could then begin embracing that term instead of marriage. We could still sign up for the rights, but help them fight the semantic war.

I mean, if your opposition already believes you're trying to destroy the institution of marriage, you have nothing to lose by having a go at it. =)
by: Kyle (contact) - 25 Dec '08 - 22:05
I'd rather fight for the right of non-married people to be able to contract privately for rights of adoption and survivor's benefits (etc) than to fight for a new legal arrangement called "lovedlock" which attempts to mimic marriage as it exists today.
by: Mike (contact) - 25 Dec '08 - 23:21
Yeah but. At the end of the day, winning the semantic war doesn't extend the tax benefits of 'married filing jointly.' And it doesn't make you eigible to adopt a kid in Arkansas. Also, I don't think the utility of fighting battles on the level of language is that significant. For reference, see the n-word.

Gay couples ought to be able to get marriage licenses in Ramsey County the same as I did. That's a lot more expeditious than Rube Goldberg-ing up equality through a complex web of private contracts.
by: Meg (contact) - 27 Dec '08 - 15:26
Yes, I agree that same sex couples should have the same rights as opposite sex couples including marriage.

I would also like to see an end to the legal institution of marriage all together. Thus, whatever the benefits of marriage, I think they should be attainable from straight forward boilerplate private contracts.

I also would like to see taxation abolished, so I guess that would solve the married filing joint problem. :)
by: Mike (contact) - 28 Dec '08 - 17:14
Mike, you are so silly. I love ya for it.
by: Meg (contact) - 28 Dec '08 - 21:17
It might be 90% of the total issues, but not 90% of the important ones.

Defining "tax and adoption benefits" as "outliers" seems disingenuous to me.
by: Kyle (contact) - 02 Jan '09 - 13:36
Since the issue is 'equality' I think we must consider it from both sides, should we give additional privileges to same sex couples so that they are equal to opposite sex couples or should we take privileges away from opposite sex couples so that they are equal with same sex couples and non-coupled people.
by: Mike (contact) - 03 Jan '09 - 14:05
Equality with non-coupled people seems to be a non-sequitur to me. For example, the AR law that banned adoption for non-married couples permitted adoption for single people. Also, with regard to taxation, there's no difference between the way the state and federal government treats gay and straight individuals. Moreover, non-coupled heterosexual people have the option to get married, and gay non-coupled people do not, So, yes, we should give additionally privileges to gay couples, not take away privilegesfrom straight couples. The only 'side' that advocates that solution, I would imagine, is the TPL and other no-taxes groups. While talking about the abolition of taxes and a state is fun at dinner parties, it will never, EVER happen, it would be disastrous in practice, and therefore, it doesn't make a lot of sense to engage the argument from that angle unless you are starting an island society on some rock in the Pacific.

There are sociological advantages to encouraging two parent family units, and stable long term 'coupling.' There are good economic and social reasons to give married couples certain privileges, sich as breaks on taxes. There is no rational reason to repeal all tax-based sociological nudges and even less reason to deny them to homosexual couples, particularly when we are talking about the sort of privileges that cannot be replicated through private contract.
by: Meg (contact) - 04 Jan '09 - 14:08
I think Meg's post is the sort of discussion that I think hits the point. The 'legal marriage good' vs 'legal marriage bad' should be the starting point.

You make some fine points in favor of 'legal marriage good'.

Fifty years ago, people would have said that gay marriage would never, EVER happen (except on some rock in Pacific). Even today, its a long shot. Our progressive president is explicitly against legal gay marriage, Kyle's blog links an article that gay activists are in the wrong fight, etc. So, in my opinion, its a good time to question are we taking the conversation in the right direction. Toward more people included in legal benefits of marriage or away from legal marriage all together.

It is also interesting that opponents of gay marriage use 'sociological' arguments too. That there are certain 'advantages' to promoting 'opposite sex' couplings. Which sociologist should the government consult in making this social engineering decision?

I propose that gays (and all of us) would be much better off if government got out of the business of engineering society.

(Bear in mind, I agree that gay couples should not be denied a legal privilege available to straight couples. I just think that we can make it equal by eliminating the privilege, rather than extending it).
by: Mike (contact) - 05 Jan '09 - 08:58
Isn't that a bit like a baseball umpire ruling that, since strike zones are so loose and fiddly that everybody should should just play Soccer because it is a theoretically better game?

It is an elegant solution to be sure, but isn't likely to go over well with the thousands of fans in the stadium who already bought their overpriced bag of peanuts.
by: Kyle (contact) - 05 Jan '09 - 10:52
I'd say the analogy is more like congress declaring that baseball is the official national pass time and that baseball tickets are tax deductible.

Is it really necessary? If people like baseball, they'll just go to the game.

Likewise, I'm not talking about getting rid of religious marriage or any other bonding rituals. I just don't think we really need government to pick one to be 'official'.
by: Mike (contact) - 05 Jan '09 - 12:24
The irreducible argument: I have no beef with gov't engineering society as long as it's done to my liking. I have no qualms about using the tax system to encourage things like two parent households or becoming employed or owning a house or providing health insurance to one's employees. Unless and until we abolish the tax system (to which I will againt point out that I am firmly opposed), I don't see even the remotsst of possibbilities that you could ever repeal the married filing jointly tax break. It would be like trying to repeal a benefit enjoyed by the elderly. The opposition is much larger and represents too enourmous of a cross section of the country. Concommitantly, state-sanctioned marriage ain't going anywhere. Mike, I know that you don't think that gay people shouldn't lag behind straight people in the civil rights department. But if you had to put emotional energy behind expanding legal marriage versus abolishing state sanctioned marriage altogether, wouldn't you rather pick the cause that is more likely to result in equality? I think you have to agree that no marriage is a much longer shot than gay marriage. I think the latter can definitely happen in our lifetime.

(Sorry for hijacking your blog, Kyle!)
by: Meg (contact) - 06 Jan '09 - 18:34
I do think legalization of gay marriage is more likely than the privatization of marriage. It is the type of culture shift that I think happens generationally due to more gays living openly out of the closet. This is why I think one day people will look back on politicians like Obama in the same way we currently look back on politicians who supported separate but equal.

It seems a long way off now. 50 years? 100 years? Who knows really?

As for what I would rather "spend my emotional energy on?". As Kyle has discussed many times in his blog, our society is caught in a constant struggle over who gets to have the social engineering to their liking. I like to spend my energy pointing out that it doesn't have to be that way. That one policy at a time we can dig ourselves out rather than dig ourselves deeper.
by: Mike (contact) - 08 Jan '09 - 02:37
Mike is gay!
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